Ikiganiro kirambuye: Tito Rutaremara yavuze kuri Kagame, ‘ishyari rya Uganda’ no kuri Trump

 Ku kibazo cya Uganda: Harimo akantu k’ishyari.

 Umurwanashyaka ntajya mu za bukuru, arapfa

 Kuba nta dini agira: Ko Imana iba hose se kuki ugomba kujya kuyisenga?

 Ku bimukira: Trump se we iwabo bavuye he ko iwabo batari Abanyamerika?

Rutaremara w’imyaka 73 ni umwe mu mpuguke n’inararibonye u Rwanda rufite, akaba mu b’imena batangije Umuryango FPR Inkotanyi ahagana mu 1987 ndetse yabaye mu ishyaka NRM riyoboye Uganda, ubwo ryafataga ubutegetsi Museveni akajya ku buyobozi.

Yabaye Umunyamabanga Mukuru wa FPR – Inkotanyi (1987-1989); Komiseri ushinzwe ubukangurambaga (1989-1991) n’umuhuzabikorwa wa Politike n’igisirikare (1991-1993). Yanabaye umudepite (1995-2000); ayobora Komisiyo yo gushyiraho Itegeko Nshinga (2000-2003); aba Umuvunyi Mukuru (2003-2012), umwanya yavuyeho ajya kuba Senateri.

Kuwa Gatandatu w’icyumweru gishize, IGIHE yagiranye ikiganiro cyihariye na Senateri Tito Rutaremara mu rugo rwe i Nyandungu mu Karere ka Kicukiro.

Mwibuka igihe mwinjiriye muri poliki?

Burya hari ubwo winjira muri politiki ari nta mirimo ukora. Ndavuga nkiri mu mashuri yisumbuye ubwo muri Uganda twari twarahunze, habaga ikibazo muri politiki ukagiha umwanya, uko ikora, uko igenda, haba bya biganiro mpaka ukabijyamo ariko icyo gihe kwari ukubikurikira ariko ntacyo nabaga nkora.

Hanyuma hakaba n’ibihugu bya Vietnam, Zimbabwe, Salvador, Nicaragua, za Angola na Afurika y’Epfo, icyo gihe bamwe bashakaga ubwigenge abandi bakuraho abanyagitugu. Nyuma rero nagiye mbijyamo, tuganira n’ibindi nk’ibyo. Hanyuma rero n’aho iby’iwacu bitangiriye, mbijyamo gutyo.

Mumaze igihe mukurikira uko u Rwanda ruyoborwa, ni irihe banga riri gutuma rugera kuri iri terambere ryose?

Ubundi si ibanga … Iyo ufite ubuyobozi bwiza, bwifuza ko abantu bakwiye gutera imbere, ukagira umurongo mwiza wa politiki, ibisigaye bigenda byikora. Twagize Imana tubona ubuyobozi bwiza, hanyuma hajyaho n’umurongo mwiza wa politiki uvuye muri RPF ariko wumvikanwaho n’andi mashyaka.

Senateri Tito Rutaremara mu kiganiro na IGIHE

Abanyarwanda benshi banyuzwe no kuyoborwa na Perezida Kagame ndetse hari n’abavuga ko yabayobora ubuziraherezo. Twavuga ko bazabona undi nka Kagame?

Urumva iyo ufite umuyobozi mwiza, bituma utabona abandi. Ari mwiza, ashoboye byose, ukabona akora neza n’ibindi. Ariko burya, none se ko atazahoraho ko hari igihe nawe azarekura! Hashobora kuba hari n’urubyiruko n’abandi wenda bafite ubwo bubasha.

Ibyo ariko ntacyo bitwaye n’iyo yaza atameze nka we ariko hakabaye abandi benshi wenda bari hasi y’urugero rwe ariko bakaba benshi, babikora ibintu bigakomeza bigakora. Ariko rero nta wamenya, wenda hari n’uwanganya nawe kuko iyo hariho umuyobozi mwiza, akora neza, abandi ntubamenya kuko baba atari abayobozi.

Ariko icyiza burya ni ukubaka inzego nzima, zikagira abayobozi bakunze igihugu cyabo. Nubwo bataba beza nka wa wundi ariko barakomeza bagafatanya ibintu bakabigeraho. Ugize Imana wabona nka we. Ariko utabonye nka we ukabona inzego nzima zubatse, zirimo abantu bazima, ibintu birakomeza.

Hari n’abajya bavuga ko bakurikije amateka y’u Rwanda, u Rwanda rukeneye umuyobozi ufite amatwara ya gisirikare….

Ubusanzwe hari imyitwarire ya kirwanashyaka y’abanyamuryango basanzwe, hakaba n’imigirire (discipline) ya gisirikare. Abasirikare bacu nk’abasirikare bakuru, icyo baturusha ni uko baba bazifite zombi. Discipline ya kirwanashyaka bakagira n’iya gisirikare kandi iya gisirikare uyisangana hose.

Ariko si ko abasirikare bose bagira iya kirwanashyaka, bifuza ko abantu batera imbere, ko politiki yaba nziza, ariko bafite ya yindi ya gisirikare. Abacu rero icyiza ni uko bafite zombi. Ugasanga n’abakada bacu nabo bafite iya kirwanashyaka ariko badafite iya gisirikare.

Ufite discipline ya kirwanashyaka ubundi arakora. Ufite discipline ya kirwanashyaka akongeraho iya gisirikare aba afite ako amurengeje ariko bose barakora, kuko nawe agize iya gisirikare ntagire iya kirwanashyaka ntabwo byashoboka. None se nti hari za leta zitegekwa n’abantu babaye abasirikare bigenda nabi?

(Kirwanashyaka: kuba umuntu aba afite ikintu ashaka kugeraho kandi akabiharanira)

Nk’iyo Perezida Kagame aza kuvuga ko atiteguye gukomeza kuyobora nubwo Abanyarwanda babimusabaga, mwari mwiteguye guhita mubona undi mukandida?

Ubu se wibwira ngo muri RPF abantu bariyo bageze kuri za miliyoni waburamo umuntu wo kwiyamamaza? Ko andi mashyaka se yabonye umuntu kuki twe twababura (aseka) ?. Hari abantu bakwiyamamaza ariko rero iyo ufite umuyobozi mwiza ntumwiyambura, urareka agakomeza akayobora.

Amashyaka abangikanye na FPR mu Rwanda, umuntu yavuga ko afite mwanya ki mu miyoborere y’igihugu?

Ntabwo amashyaka nyacira urubanza ngo kora iki … ariko kuki hajyaho politiki y’amashyaka menshi? Ni uko abantu batagomba kugira umurongo umwe nubwo mwaba muhuje mwese mwifuza ko igihugu mukigeza ku majyambere.

Ariko mu Rwanda icyo dufite cy’inyongera ni uko abantu, mu matora barapiganwa ariko bakamenya ko hari n’aho bagomba guhurira kugira ngo bubake igihugu cyabo, aho kugira ngo mwangane muterane amabuye. Musangira ubutegetsi.

Burya nk’ishyaka ryatsinze nka RPF ntabwo muri guverinoma igira abarenze 50%, abandi bahabwa andi mashyaka n’abandi batekinisiye bashobora gukora.

Mu Rwanda twavuga ko hari ishyaka ritavuga rumwe n’ubutegetsi?

Ntabwo nzi ubivuga igituma yirirwa abibaza kuko aba muri Forum (Ihuriro ry’imitwe ya politiki yemewe mu Rwanda) tuganiriramo, ngira ngo aba abivuga kugira ngo abo hanze bamwumve neza n’ibindi, kuko urumva aba muri Forum, icyo gihe yanabivugaga, uwari Umuvugizi wungirije yari uwe, aho duhurira twese.

Ariko yabivuga ntacyo bitwaye igihe cyose adakora…, urumva nanone kujya hariya ngo njyewe ndwanya ubutegetsi buriho kandi ukorana nabwo, urumva aribyo wowe? Ni uko nta n’abadepite agira, iyo abagira aba afitemo n’umwanya. Ariko ntacyo bitwaye ni ibyo ashaka kwivugira ni uburenganzira bwe.

Mubifata mute nk’iyo amahanga akomeza kuvuga ko ubutegetsi bw’u Rwanda budaha umwanya abatavuga rumwe nabwo?

Umwanya se hari uwo bawimye ugirango? None se igihe cya Twagiramungu ntiyaje nawe avuga ko ari opozisiyo akaza akitoresha agatsindwa? Wa mudogiteri wari ntuza we ntiyaje akiyamamaza? Gusa ni uko, icya mbere abo hanze harimo ibintu bibiri bakora.

Icya mbere barashaka ko dukora nk’uko bakora, iryo niryo kosa ryabo, kumva ko umuntu agomba gukora nka bo. Icya kabiri, ntabwo bihangana ngo barebe uko dukora noneho nibabyumva bagende bavuge bati iri ni ikosa, iri si ikosa. Barebe niba buri wese adafite uburenganzira bwo kwitoresha.

Ngira ngo warabibonye, hari ba Meya bashatse kureba uko babuza wawundi, barafungwa. N’abari za Rubavu bari bamushutse barafunzwe kubera ko batagombaga kubuza umuntu uwo ari we wese gutanga ibitekerezo bye. Noneho hakaba n’abo bari hanze barwanya leta bafite n’abandi bazungu bafatanyije nabo.

Mu myaka mumaze muri politiki ni iki cyaba cyaratumye mubura ibitotsi?

Hari byinshi byatumye mbura ibitotsi, hari na byinsi byanshimishije: Ikiruta ibindi, ku byambujije ibitotsi, buriya tugiye ku rugamba uwayoboraga ingabo zacu agapfa, byatumye ntasinzira. Ariko Jenoside itangiye kuba, nabyo byatumaga ntasinzira.

Tuti ese ugiye mu Rwanda ngo urwanye akarengane, none akarengane kamazeho abantu, nacyo cyatumaga tudasinzira. Tugira ingorane, tuje igihugu kimaze gufatwa, ubundi abandi barishima.

Twebwe rero ntitwishimye kuko urangije intambara ubona imirambo myinshi yuzuye aho, ubona abantu benshi bagiye muri Congo kandi ari abanyarwanda mwagombaga gufatanya kubaka igihugu, ureba ibintu byashwanyaguritse, mu isanduku ya leta nta bintu birimo, urumva ntabwo twishimye.

Ibishimisha gusa ni nyuma ubutegetsi butangiye gukora, ukabona tujya ku murongo, igihugu cyafatwaga nk’igihugu kibi gitangiye kuba cyiza, ni ibintu bishimisha. Gusa intambara y’ubukungu yo iracyakomeje.

Urugamba rwo kubohora u Rwanda rwatangiriye muri Uganda, ibihugu bifatanya, ariko ubu hagenda bazamo ibibazo mu mubano wabyo. Muratekereza ko byaba biri guterwa n’iki?

Ngira ngo Abanya-Uganda bibwiye ko ubwo kuko ariho twaturutse hariya iwabo, ko bakomeza kugira wenda uruhare mu kudutegeka kandi twebwe tudashaka gutegekwa, ntabwo twifuza gutegekwa.

Bo iyo babitanga hirya bavuga ko batugize (mu rugamba rwo kubohora igihugu) kandi atari byo ni twe twirwaniye ubwacu, ahubwo twarabafashije cyane kurusha uko badufashije. Ariko nabo baradufashije […] kumva ko twabayoboka ariko tugomba ubwigenge bwacu. Icyo ni kimwe.

Bagira gutya bakabona ibintu hano biragenda neza, iwabo bigenda neza ariko bitari ku murongo nk’uwo dufite, hakazamo akantu k’ishyari.

Ni utuntu duto nk’utwo tugenda tuza, twaba duturuka kuri iryo shyari, tukongera tugaturuka kuri ibyo bintu by’uko wenda bifuza ko bahora bari imbere yacu, noneho abaturwanya bakaboneraho icyuho banyuramo kugira ngo babikore. Wenda ari iyo RNC ya ba Kayumba bakabona icyuho n’abo Bafaransa nabo bakabonamo icyuho, ni nk’ibyo. Ariko ntabwo birenga inkombe baba bazi ibyo aribyo, muri politiki, ari twe, ari nabo ntabwo dushaka ibyaduteza imvururu. Ariko utwo tuntu tw’abakeba tubaho.

Hari abanyamuryango ba FPR bagenda batatira igihango, na Perezida Kagame aheruka kubikomozaho. Musanga bituruka ku ki?

Buriya igihe twabaga turi ku rugamba turwana tuvuga ko tuje kugira ngo tubohore igihugu cyacu, hari bamwe babaga bazi ko muri uko kubohora igihugu cyacu, bakwibohora ubwa mbere batabohoye abandi. Bakumva rero baza bakikorera bagakoramo, akaba aribo bireba kurusha uko bareba igihugu. Abo rero bari muri abo.

Burya abagenda ni ababa bashaka ngo babanze bihe babone guha abaturage nk’aho bahaye abaturage mbere yo kwiha.

Muvuga iki ku ivuka ry’amadini rya hato na hato?

Iyaba uko yiyongera ariko n’ibyaha byagabanukaga […] Ko ari Imana imwe bemera, ku bwanjye amadini abaye nk’ane atanu, byaba bihagije. Ariko ubu ngubu uragera mu murenge ugasanga amadini ageze kuri 30 hari aho usanga hagati ya 30 na 25 kandi muri uwo murenge wenda hatarimo n’umuganga hatarimo na ‘engineer’.

Ariko rero ni uburenganzira bwabo gushyiraho ayo madini, gusa ni ukureba ko atica umurongo wa politike. Ariko nkanjye numva Imana imwe niyo twemera kandi ndibwira ko twese abemera inzira ari imwe, inzira zo kurijyamo zumvikanweho zikaba nkeya wenda zikaba icumi byaba bihagije.

Kandi sinzi ko uko yiyongera (amadini) ariko n’ibyaha bigabanuka, njye mbona bitagabanuka ahubwo ari abajura bariyongera ari abafata ku ngufu bariyongera kandi amadini akiyongera, ni igitekerezo cyanjye ariko rero bafite uburenganzira bwabo.

Mwe musengera mu rihe dini?

Ntaho nsengera! Ko Imana iba hose se kuki ugomba kujya kuyisenga? Njya mbwira abapadiri ko abazungu aho baziye Imana bayikuye mu rugo bayijyana mu kiliziya. Abanyarwanda bo Imana yabaga iri mu rugo rwa buri muntu wese none barayitwaye bayishyira mu makanisa no muri za kiliziya.

Ariko abarongoye njyayo, abapfuye njyayo, mu kubahiriza iyo mihango. Kera ndi umwana navutse mu muryango w’abagatolika cyane ndanahereza ariko natangiye kubigira ngiye muri Uganda nko mu myaka 20 kujyana hejuru, nibwo natangiye kugenda nibaza ibibazo.

Ni iyihe shusho y’u Rwanda mwifuza?

Igihe Umunyarwanda ashoboye kubona ibyo arya, akarya gatatu ku munsi, akabona amashuri yo kwigisha umwana we kugera aho yifuza, akagira ahantu abasha kwivuza hamwegereye kandi akivuza indwara zose, uwo mu nyarwanda akaba ashobora kuba yabona n’udufaranga akoresha ibyo ariko akagira nutwo ashyira iruhande.

Nk’igihe avuze ati ndumva nshaka wenda kujya kureba Amerika uko isa akajyayo, yumva ashaka kureba u Buhinde akajyayo, ni aho ngaho. Ni icyo ngicyo nifuza.

Ikibazo cy’abimukira kiri kuvugisha benshi ndetse Perezida wa Amerika, Donald Trump aheruka gukoresha imvugo itarashimishije abayobozi ba Afurika. Amaherezo y’ikibazo azaba ayahe?

Trump se we iwabo bavuye he ko iwabo batari Abanyamerika? Buriya nta gihe abimukira batabayeho. Muri Amerika habaga Abahinde batukura, bariya bazungu bose bavuye ahandi.

Mbere abazungu bari bafite ubukungu bakeneye n’abakozi ariko kubera ko ibyo bihugu bimaze kugira ingorane z’ubukungu, bafite abantu benshi badafite imirimo, bumva batifuza abandi noneho abantu baza bigatera induru.

Natwe abanyafurika dufitemo amakosa kuko twabaye aho twumva ko ibyiza biri i Burayi, kuko ubukungu babufataga hano bakabutwara bakabukoresha hariya i Burayi ukaba ubona ko ariho ubukungu buri, ibyiza ariho biri.

Urumva ni ikosa ryacu natwe abanyafurika kuko nta ntambwe twateye, ariko guhagarika kuriya (gukumira abimukira) bigasakuza nabyo ni ikosa rya bariya kuko abantu bari basanzwe bagenda.

Ariko ntunagire ngo bariya bagenda wenda ni uko ari abakene, reba ntavuze wenda kuva muri ibyo bihugu ugera muri Libya, umubare w’amafaranga wenda ntabwo nayarmenya neza, ariko kwambuka hahandi mu bwato bagenda bagapfa, uziko buri wese atanga amadolari y’Amaerika 10,000? Cyangwa ntuzi abantu bakoraga muri za banki aha cyangwa bafite imyanya bataye bakajya muri za Canada?

Muri politiki hari ubwo bigera umuntu akajya mu kiruhuko cy’izabukuru. Icyanyu mugiteganyamo iki?

Nko gukora imirimo ya leta, narengeje igihe nagombaga kuba naragiye mu kiruhuko. Ariko muri politiki iyo uri umurwanashyaka ntujya mu kiruhuko, ukijyamo ari uko upfuye. Uba wumva wajya mu biganiro, watanga igitekerezo, ahabonetse ikibazo wajyayo kukireba…

Igihe cyose wahagaze ukavuga ngo ndashaka kubohora iki gihugu kandi kubohora igihugu ni inzira ndende, kandi iyo nzira igira ibyiciro. U Rwanda dushaka ntabwo turahagera. Nduhukira iki se ko nkishoboye gukora? Ariko leta ishobora kuvuga iti ’twe ntidushaka kuguhemba urakuze genda’, aho birumvikana.

Ariko rero muri politiki njye nagumamo kereka abantu bavuze ngo turakurambiwe genda, ariko nubwo bandambirwa najya mu mudugudu nkajya n’ahandi nkabikora kuko intego nihaye ntiragera. Ubundi bihagarikwa no gupfa. Kujya mu kiruhuko byo ntabwo… keretse nindwara. Nkigiramo iki? Umurwanashyaka ntajya mu za bukuru, arapfa.

Mu Rwanda hari amakipe menshi n’imikino itandukanye. Ni iyihe mufana?

Ikipe ya APR FC turi mu bayitangije turi hariya ku rugamba urumva iyo ni iyanjye, ariko rero ubundi iyo ikipe yacu iyo ariyo yose yagiye hanze, niyo mfana. Yaba APR, yaba Rayon Sports, yaba Kiyovu n’indi, ndayifana iyo igiye gukina n’abandi.

Naho muri shampiyona zo mu bindi bihugu?

Kera nafanaga Liverpool (yo mu Bwongereza) muri za 1974 iza kugira ingorane bakinira mu Bubiligi, aba hooligans bayo bica abantu hapfa abagera ku 130, bayihagarika imyaka ine, noneho ntangira gufana Manchester United kugeza ubu.

Nyuma nza kongeraho na FC Barcelone kuko nkunda umukino wayo, usanga bakina bashushanya. Mu bihugu nkunda Brazil kuko ikina nka Barcelona ariko rero zino z’i Burayi, indi kipe nkunda ni iy’Abadage, ifite umupira uba uri ku mibare.

Ni abahe bakinnyi mukunda muri ayo makipe?

Muri Manchester United nta mukinnyi nigeze mbonamo undyohera cyane nubwo nyifana, mbiheruka kera abantu bitwaga ba Keegan ariko muri iki gihe nkunda Messi.

Burya abandi bakunda Ronaldo, ngo arirukanka, agashyira ku ntuza atya, akagira n’izo mbaraga, ariko Ronaldo iyo afashe umupira ashyira ku mpande ngo abasige aze kuboneza atsinde. Messi we arawufata agashyira hagati hahandi hari amaguru menshi, akabacenga akabatsinda.

Ni ubuhe bwoko bw’umuziki mukunda kumva?

Buriya muzabibona wenda muzaba nkanjye, uko ugenda ukura, kera nkiri muto nakundaga Rock & Roll, izitwaga za Tist, izi za ba Bob Marley za Reggae ariko uko ugenda usaza ubu nkunda iza ba Cecile Kayirebwa ziba zoroshye.

Ni hehe mukunda kuruhukira?

Ko u Rwanada rwose ari heza! Aho ngeze ngasanga ari heza ndicara nkareba, nshobora no kwicara ku ibaraza nkareba ukuntu Kigali ari nziza; ntabwo njya ngira kuvuga ngo aha ni heza uwajya njyayo, aho wajya hose mu Rwanda (usanga ari heza). Ubu se warinda ujya Rubavu urenze nka za Rebero hariya…

Iyo mudafite akazi umunsi wanyu muwukoramo iki?

Hari ubwo nsoma igitabo, naba ntafite igitabo nkajya muri telefoni yanjye haba harimo internet cyangwa nkareba filimi kuri televiziyo n’amakuru. Kera nakinaga Basketball na Volleyball ku rwego rw’ishuri, ubundi mu gitondo hari akagare mfite iyo nabyutse kare nkajyaho iminota cumi nkarekera aho.

Ubumenyi mufite hari ibitabo mwari mwabwandikaho?

Ntabwo ndicara ngo nandike kuriya bandika ibitabo, uretse wenda nk’isomo ngiye kwigisha, ubwo nandika iryo somo ariko narangiza ubwo bupapuro wenda nkabujugunya (aseka).

Niba ari ubunebwe, ngira ubunebwe bwo kwandika, niba ari ukureba ngo ese ndandika ibiki, ugasanga numva nta n’ibintu mfite byo kwandika. Kandi ikindi hari ubwo kuvuga ngo reka nandike abantu bazamenye ko nanditse, ibyo rero ndabyanga, ntabwo mbikunda njyewe ibyo.

Ariko ni ubunebwe kutandika, abantu benshi bahora babinsaba nkabikiza nkavuga ngo nzandika ariko nzi ko ntabwo, cyangwa wenda hari igihe nzicara nkandika, wenda ni igitekerezo kitari cyaza.

Mu gusoza, hari abantu bavuga ngo mufite abuzukuru barenga 100 n’abana barenga 50…

Barabeshya, ngira umwana umwe wanjye ariko abandi ni aba nyuma ya jenoside; burya ntabwo wabwira abantu ngo nyabuneka nimufate abandi bana, utabikora. Iyo uri umuyobozi mwiza ugomba gutanga urugero. Nza kugira mu rugo hano abantu bagera kuri mirongo itatu n’abandi, abenshi bariga, bamwe muri bo bararongowe abandi bararongora, ubu ako mfite gatoya ni akana, nagafashe ari agahinja k’ukwezi kumwe.

Senateri Tito Rutaremara ntiyemera ikiruhuko cy’izabukuru ku munyapolitiki